Selected Replies to "On Being Perfect"

Note: Because my psychology correspondence has gradually evolved toward offering people advice, I want to say I am not a psychologist and any advice I offer is based only on common sense and life experience. I think most educated readers will accept this.

My boredom is the world's business

I include this post, not because it has any depth of content, but so people won't think I'm exaggerating the narcissism and shallowness of the typical Web surfer.

By what means am I not to believe that you are not in fact another narcissist internet junkie? Unless you have something coherent to say, by what logic should I or anyone care what you think of me or my Website? Each month, hundreds of thousands of people visit my site. Each of my visitors is exercising free choice, some doubtless find my articles silly and move on. Many people visit Websites that fail their personal standards, but only narcissists write to say how bored they are.

I don't have to justify myself to you, and the fact that you think I do only reveals the depth of your narcissism.

The next time you encounter a Website that bores you, just choose a different one, with a silence appropriate to the richness of your intellectual life. Well your vain articles ... Evidence? Or did you miss this word and its meaning during your education? ... would surely prove that. Anyway they bore me to death. Your boredom is not a matter of public concern, and you just confirmed your narcissism. The fact that my articles bore you to death should only be a reason for you to use your channel selector (that's your mouse) to choose another Website, not to write the self-indulgent, contentless post you ended up writing.

Short form: no one cares what bores you. The only reason you think it's important is because you are a narcissist, someone inclined to alert the media when his wishes are frustrated. And about Psychology...well tell what degree you've taken in Psychology? You obviously failed to read the articles you feel competent to complain about (or if you read them, the wires between your eyes and your brain blew down in a petulant storm). If you had read and understood them, you would know that you just committed a very common logical error, argumentum ad verecundiam, or argument from authority. An argument from authority is a way for uneducated people to advertise their ignorance, but it has no place in a discussion of science, where evidence is the only basis for discussion.

Imagine how Einstein's first relativity paper would have been received if the periodical he submitted it to had been guided by your enlightened belief system. They wouldn't have published it, on the ground that Einstein hadn't finished his degree (he was a lowly patent clerk at the time).

But that is not what happened. Reason? Just like people, ideas should be judged, not on their source, but on their content. Consequently, we all know who Einstein is, and none of us care what degrees he had — at least, no educated people care.

If scientific discussions were governed by your medieval outlook, science and human progress would grind to a halt, for the simple reason that every new scientific field, and every breakthrough within an established field, is born without a graduate degree program. Established academic programs can only teach what is already known — new discoveries by definition take place outside the domain of education. This is why science disregards authority.

In short, people who ask, "By what authority do you discuss ..." are only revealing the incompetence of their teachers. You know my Aunt committed suicide suffering from Bipolar Disorder. And I guess frequent mood swings and voices and hallucinations I guess don't exist. You are entitled to your opinion. How does your remark relate to the content of my articles? In my articles, I clearly say that psychologists are competent to describe mental disorders. You know, if you had read the articles you are complaining about, you might be able to argue from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance. Hmmm... Well then I do agree yes mental illness has gotten way too far. You are in no way agreeing with my articles, only yourself. Everyone claims to be and they're inventing new illnesses. This sentence fails any test of internal consistency. Try re-reading your posts before mashing the "send" button. Avoid further embarrassment. Perhaps they should have left it at Mania and Dementia. But trust me I grew up around plenty of Mental Helath issues..Especially having my own brother tell me he was the Antichrist. Hmmm... I guess he was bored. I guess we're all pretty bored. I would be bored as well, if like you I had nothing worth thinking about. But in point of fact, that isn't true. The only reason you think everyone is bored when you are bored is because you suffer from megalomania, narcissism's loyal traveling companion.

Please spare us the details of your personal melodrama — suffer in silence.

Perfect!

... thank you for your treatise "On Being Perfect". It explains the likely mental profile of various personalities I have encountered over the years, and it appears to support my instinctual response to distance myself from such encounters. I will forward a link to it to several of my friends who have recently had the misfortune to be "narcisssized" by a particularly 6-ish 46-year-old "expert". You're very welcome. I'm glad my article is helping readers deal with these annoying, sometimes dangerous people.

By the way. Remember the old joke line "Anarchists, Unite!"? It's funny because anarchists obviously aren't going to unite. It turns out it's the same with narcissists, because only one of them can be the smartest person in the world. :)

I appreciate your kind comments.

How not to get along with a narcissist

I had the great misfortune to get involved with a narcissist a few years ago. In fact, this woman bore traits of several related disorders in the spectrum of Axis II personality disorders. She might just as easily have been diagnosed as histrionic or borderline, or all three, depending on the information made available to the diagnostician.I can attest to the truth of what you say about the female narcissist, who excels at her craft in ways that would put any man to shame. To my knowledge, I am the sixth man to be so utterly devalued by this woman in about 20 years. I am going to say something here and I hope you will not be offended. In order for a narcissist to devalue a person, that person must voluntarily put himself in a position to be devalued. The key to dealing with narcissists is not to give them anything unless and until they earn it. Narcissists are born manipulators. They are unable to earn the respect and affection of others in the traditional, honest way.

Relationships between narcissists and intact, self-respecting people last about 30 seconds. Narcissists can only have enduring relationships with narcissistic enablers, and the relationship is parasitic. We'd all be wise to learn just enough about the tactics such people use, and to avoid them. I spent quite some time afterward supporting and being supported by others who had experienced the brutality of these sociopaths firsthand, and few could match my own experience for either her persistence or pure evil. I commend you for your insights, and I thank you for sharing them. This comes down to self-knowledge. Once one has sufficient self-knowledge, one avoids narcissists like the Plague. There's nothing that can be done for them, so you look after your own needs. The impulse to meet a narcissist's expectations is invariably the first chapter in a Greek tragedy.

You're the real narcissist!

Well you're certainly correct narcissists do like the internet, and, they also like feeling smart and, posting pictures of themselves and also creating a website about their superior knowledge. Actually, narcissists don't tend to post their own opinions at all, because the possibility exists that they will be proven wrong. Clinical narcissists are by definition always right, and they do this by aligning themselves with unimpeachable authority, not by posting their personal views.

If someone challenges the views of a narcissist, the latter responds by referring to the authority, and if that fails, he changes authorities. But he will never acknowledge the possibility of being wrong in a personal sense.

I am wrong regularly, and as a scientist I am more than willing to change my views based on new evidence. You don't have the intellectual training required to see that as a requirement for all legitimate intellectual discourse, or its association with idea creation and testing.

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new" — Albert Einstein. Narcissists tend to own websites and talk about themselves or at least talking a lot! Say again? Maybe a bit more time spent composing your messages will pay off in the long run. Welcome to humanity genius. This sort of prose normally follows an unimpeachable argument, but that argument is missing from your post. But remember I thought you didn't have any beliefs about psychiatry but when someone angers you you might as well half heartedly agree with it. Agree with what? The fact that psychiatry is not a science doesn't mean there are no mental conditions. Your position is like arguing with a racist by taking the position that there are no black people. I agree with some articles, but just noticed that no matter who you are you are flawed Do you seriously think the point is not to be flawed? Science doesn't argue that humans are not flawed, quite the opposite. If people were not flawed in diverse ways, there would be no point in a discipline like science to keep us honest. The existence of science represents confirmation of the existence of human flaws, including mine.

But you could find this out in the usual way, by reading, by becoming educated. and I have caught up with your articles for awhile now but gotta be honest. Does this represent a break with the past? I am not a New Ager, but believe in spirituality. This has no connection whatsoever with the present topic. Not all those people are bad, You have just used a word, and a concept, that I have never used in any of my articles. many actually make a difference and help That is a point I make explicitly in my articles — about psychologists, bartenders, astrologers and others. They all help their clients, just as a sugar pill, a "placebo," helps a medical patient under the right circumstances. And it is not the topic. then even Christians think they help others. Yes, of course, I have never taken any other position. You need to read more carefully and less emotionally. I disagree with your views on psychology, Based on the content of your post, you do not remotely understand my views on psychology. How did you miss the part where people are being jailed, lives ruined, on the basis of fantasies concocted by psychologists in the minds of their clients? How did you miss the part where bogus therapeutic methods sometimes kill people, people like Candace Newmaker? you don't understand a persons reasons for their choices In a political issue like this one, we don't need to understand the reasons, only the outcomes. you can't judge a person just by actions or beliefs. In point of fact, yes, one can judge a person based on his actions — this is the basis of all criminal law. Imagine defending a rapist by saying, "You can't judge a person based on his actions." I respectfully disagree. I don't see things through a rosy lens, I just have my personal experience to understand. Sadly noted. Maybe it's time for you to get an education, so you can comprehend something other than your subjective experience.

What you fail to realize is this issue comes down to — not emotion — but evidence. It is in the nature of evidence not to care how people feel about it.

Children of Narcissists

I just read your article about narcissistic people, in which you say the best way to deal with a narcissist is to get away from them before they destroy you. I am wondering what you would recommend to the young man with the narcissistic mother you spoke of. Well, because the person in question is a minor, he doesn't have a lot of options until he's 18, and the people around him (relatives, teachers and counselors) may make things worse by concealing basic facts from him, in part because of enormous social pressure to preserve the special relationship between parents and children.

I am quite militant about people like "Joan" because in my long life I've seen many examples of the harm they do. Narcissism is sufficiently malignant that the two obvious responses to the narcissist — acceptance and rejection — are both mistakes.

The reason they are both mistakes is because they represent a "false choice". If the child takes the first option and accepts the narcissist, he becomes an enabler, an accomplice, and this might create a lifelong pattern of behavior. And because he is not free to leave, the only way a child can reject the narcissist is to become a bigger narcissist himself.

For an adult, the third option — escape — is regarded as the only healthy decision, but this option is not available to a child. My mom is this type of narcissist. I am [ ... ] years old and she is now [ ... ]. She did ruin my life and it is true, she still is the same. There is very little support for the idea that narcissists ever change or evolve. There is no known cure or effective therapy. This is why getting away from them is the generally accepted solution. I did try to get away from her. I won't go into the many tactics she used, but she made me suffer a great deal. The only way I could end the suffering was to go along with what she wanted or leave my entire family. I could not bear being so alone without a family, so I caved. This clearly shows the false choice at work. But since you do see the problem, do you have any thoughts about what a person whose parent is like this might do? Getting away from a narcissist is an extreme example of the more normal process of becoming an adult, where a person establishes his own separate identity.

In normal circumstances, breaking away and entering adult life is a painful experience for both the parents and the child. It's sort of a second birth, where the birth canal is the front door of your parents' house.

In the special circumstance of a narcissistic parent, breaking away is more like escaping from a bear trap with a Swiss Army knife — you may have to leave some limbs behind. But not breaking away is worse, as I am sure you will agree.

My standard advice to young people with narcissistic parents is to be patient, hopeful and optimistic, avoid confrontations, become an adult, and leave.

Society won't normally allow families to be split up based on the pathology of the parents, because that would become a bigger social problem than the harm the parents do when given free rein. The problem is that narcissistic parents find this out, then they become incredible bullies and sadists, because they know society won't do anything about it.

Narcissistic parents were bullied and tortured when they were kids, now it's their turn. I discovered this generational angle when "Joan" tried to excuse her behavior by saying, "parents have always terrorized their children." It's true, but it's terribly sad, and fortunately it's not the only possibility.

To recognize that narcissists are damaged goods and cannot be reformed is the first step to recognizing the solution — break away, leave. Do not allow yourself to be talked into "helping" narcissists — they cannot be helped, and any support you give them only makes them worse, more demanding, more parasitic. By the way, that's one way to identify narcissists — they keep getting worse, while claiming to be getting better.

And this important warning. Do not engage narcissists with the intent to proactively reform them. They will stop at nothing to defend themselves against an effort to improve their functioning, and there is no behavior too vile or low for narcissists when they feel threatened by the prospect of personal change. I found this out the hard way.

How about more on this topic?

I read your article on Narcissism and saw that you had some odd responses, so I thought I would send you a positive reply. Your article is greatly appreciated. My father has NPD and I have read so many books on this topic, your article hit home. The lesson for me is so simple yet so true...that I can still be a giver without being an enabler. Red flags should arise when somebody will not take no for an answer, because normal people will accept others decisions. (and no for an answer) That's going to be my mantra from now on.

Anyway, I do not know if you are going to be writing more on Narcissism or not, but I ask that you will. We need educated, respectable people out there getting the word out to victims. Sounds weird, I know, but I have met so many people who have suffered so much because of Narcissism.

Thanks for the article.

You are certainly welcome. I think there are many more narcissists out there than present estimates would lead one to believe. I keep meeting them online and in person.

Apropos your request, I am planning to write more on this topic. I intend to create a "narcissism checklist" Web page, with a list of obvious narcissism warning signs, like:

All interpersonal interactions are about control, not communication.
Won't accept "no" in circumstances where a reasonable person would accept it.
Expects concessions from others that he would never grant to another.
Chronic asymmetry in relationships — takes but doesn't give, and doesn't feel uncomfortable about it.
Has no idea how his behavior looks to other people, and doesn't seem to care.
The "hypocrisy factor" — thinks he has rights and privileges that he won't grant to others.
Perpetual dissatisfaction, and no personal responsibility — "This isn't good enough, and it's your fault!" Whatever happens, no matter how positive, the narcissist finds a reason to declare it unsatisfactory, and to hold someone else responsible.
A constant effort to associate with unimpeachable authority, and the more powerful and distant the authority, the better.
A preference for plural pronouns in personal communications — "We aren't happy" is much preferred over "I'm not happy," even if it's necessary to invent the unhappy group.

This list is a work in progress. It will most likely become longer and more detailed.

My article about symmetry, located here —

http://arachnoid.com/symmetry

— contrasts itself with narcissism by examining normal relationships and how they become more balanced over time.

Thanks again for writing!

What to do I

This may seem a strange message considering you're expecting something along the lines of a math or science question. No problem — given the number of articles I publish on narcissism and related issues, some psychological inquiries are expected. I read one of your older articles while researching narcissism. In my case, I must continue to live with my NPD partner (with my [ ... ] children) for the next [ ... ]. (legal reasons). It is exhausting and horrendous. What I was hoping to find was whether there's any way, yet, to help or to successfully confront a person suffering with NPD that you're aware of? Yes, there is a way — you leave. Malignant narcissism is incurable and dangerous. And one more warning, that I hope you won't be offended by — people who live with narcissists tend to pick the same sort of people over and over again.

Narcissists are famously ruthless and lacking in empathy and know how to twist situations to their personal advantage, so don't expect to be able to out-narcissist a narcissist. Besides, if you were to succeed, you would have become part of the problem.

Good luck.

What to do II

I completely understand your answer, given what's currently known about NPD. Statistics all point to it being suffered by roughly 1% of the population- which seems a low count, to me. If the disorder is not diagnosed (as most w/NPD do not seek self-treatment) and is only found out via the victims, how accurate could that be? Yes, true. And there are some factors that prevent the number from being higher, like the fact that certain social positions are indistinguishable from malignant narcissism but are not labeled as such — like some religions and political positions, and ironically clinical psychology itself, all of which represent examples of unearned authority that preferentially attract narcissists. While I understand the viewpoint that the best thing to do is to leave, where does that leave the sufferer? Leaving, without an attempt to reach or break through to the NPD, means that they are left unaware/untreated and will then go out to inflict the same treatment on others. It feels very wrong and cruel to leave it at that. Yes, except that there really is no treatment, compounded by the fact that the NPD "sufferer" is in denial (this is itself symptomatic) and resists any effort at treatment. It also seems odd that therapists don't take more interest in finding a way of treatment, for everyone's sake. It's not odd at all, and its not true that therapists are unconcerned. It's clear that the condition is incredibly resistant to treatment, and the resistance starts with the narcissist. Believe me, if there was a treatment, it wouldn't be a secret. Of all disorders that would be incredibly important to cure (due to the massive suffering on everybody's part) this is a big one. Yes, except that a cure isn't made more likely by desire for a cure — that's a logical fallacy. That is more like religion than science. To answer your one comment- I don't take offense when someone tries to offer honest opinions. I do question the assertion that people are attracted to NPD's for their disorder/behavior- when the reality is that they "act" a completely different person while you're meeting and falling for them. I have had this conversation any number of times. The fact is that narcissists preferentially attract a certain kind of person, and no others. The people they attract are predisposed to support narcissists, accommodate them, enable them. Others instinctively recognize the condition for what it is and stay away. If someone is outwardly abusive, and you continue to date such people, then yes, that would indicate a pattern on the victim's side of things. You are missing the point. If someone lavishes unearned praise, is overly, unrealistically doting to an absurd degree, a normal person takes this as a danger sign and recoils, while an enabler wallows in the praise, constitutionally unable to foresee the next phase. Few conditions have more of a Jekyll/Hyde component than narcissism. You meet Dr. Jekyll, but you end up with Mr. Hyde. But on first meeting, only an enabler can't see Hyde concealed within Jekyll. I've been in [ ... ] other relationships in my life, [ ... ], and they ended amicably- no NPD in sight. I recognize that this is my partner's issue and has nothing at all to do with me or my behavior. I am sorry, but that is false. I don't know you, we have never met, I am not a psychologist, but that is false. You cannot rationally claim that your behavior has no effect on his behavior. That claim has no rational basis.

Consider this contrast:

An enabler is sympathetic toward the narcissist, asks why mental health professionals aren't doing more, and basically takes personal responsibility for the narcissist.
A normal person holds the narcissist personally and morally accountable for his own behavior, refuses to allow the narcissist to defer responsibility onto anyone else, and resists entanglement in his issues.

It's time to ask yourself which of these descriptions fits. I have no problem leaving the moment that I can and severing this relationship. I continue to read and to research in order to keep myself grounded and [ ... ]. I need to tell you that adopting a posture that there is (or should be) a treatment out there, absent any evidence, is an indicator of enabling behavior. Narcissists must accept personal responsibility for their behavior and show a personal investment in changing their behavior. But narcissists cannot do this — instead they adeptly maneuver someone else into taking responsibility for their behavior: the enabler. As I said, leaving is not an option for me for at least [ ... ]. My [ ... ] depend on our remaining here in order to [ ... ]. I am desperately looking to find someone who knows of treatments, therapies- any way to address this that can make our lives easier. You need to stop assuming without evidence that there is a point to your search, and you need to candidly ask yourself why you take this position. Consider how much harm these people do — the Charlie Mansons, the David Koreshes of the world, people who cause other people to die — and ask yourself how anyone could keep a treatment or a cure to themselves. There is no treatment, there is no cure, and we cannot wish this away. Again, thank you for your advice. Maybe I'll find my solution in time. What I've noticed about enablers is that they believe there's a rational basis for expecting the narcissist to change, they believe the change doesn't require the narcissist's coöperation, and they always have a rationalization for staying rather than leaving.

And some of those enablers write me, expecting against all evidence that I will encourage their enabling behavior. But I never do, but this doesn't keep them from writing.

So here's my advice. You may have a perfectly reasonable explanation for staying, and your compassion for NPD "sufferers" is admirable, but your expectation that there is a treatment is unsupportable and is a sign of enabling behavior. That makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Narcissists refuse to acknowledge or accept responsibility for their own behavior, instead they rely on enablers to accept responsibility instead. And it seems there is always an enabler.

When Charlie Manson, a notorious narcissist, was arrested for a series of gruesome murders in the late 1960s, the prosecutor (Vincent Bugliosi) did something very wise — he prosecuted and jailed Manson's enablers as well as Manson himself. The reason? Manson's enablers made Manson possible.

What to do III

I do see the point of your assertion that I am an enabler- and I can see where I have been doing so under my own mistaken views. I only have ever seen myself as compassionate- but it appears I've lost sight of proper use of healthy boundaries and have made excuses for my partner's unwillingness to accept responsibility for poor and hurtful behavior. Until recently, that is. Unfortunately, calling them on this behavior results in worse behavior. That is classic narcissism. That kind of denial and avoidance continues up to, including, and past, the end of the relationship. It's not your fault, and it's not your responsibility either. This realization doesn't make you an uncaring person, it makes you an educated person. This isn't a problem if you're able to leave- but that isn't my case. This is a narcissist's paradise. You have compelling reasons to stay, and to make the situation more bearable you've talked yourself into the idea that narcissism is amenable to treatment. This plays into the narcissist's game plan — anything he does results from a need for treatment, he's suffering from an illness and is therefore freed of personal and moral accountability. The responsibility becomes yours rather than his. You may have a perfectly reasonable explanation for staying, and your compassion for NPD "sufferers" is admirable, but your expectation that there is a treatment is unsupportable and is a sign of enabling behavior. That makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution.

That I wish there were a cure isn't an expectation but rather is that part of me that abhors suffering in any form. This is your personal Achilles' heel (and that of many people). The trick in life is to be compassionate when compassion can bear fruit, but firm when compassion would make things worse. These choices aren't easy, the answers aren't written down anywhere, and there are no experts.

I wish you the best of luck.